(no subject)

[timelets]

Pierce Morgan, of all people:

And the fact Donald Trump is not just allowing it to happen, but actively encouraging it to happen, is an indefensible disgrace.

The President keeps insisting he’s not a racist, and I’ve repeatedly said that in the 13 years I’ve known him, I’ve personally never witnessed him being a racist.

But since running for the White House, his inflammatory language has flirted ever closer to crossing the line into overt racism, and now he’s crossed that line. Big time.

Let’s be very unambiguously clear: what happened in North Carolina last night was not just racist-fueled demagoguery but bordered on fascism.

There was the President of the United States whipping his supporters into a hyper-animated state of rage about a political opponent because of her ethnicity.
...

What happened last night was a despicable moment in modern America.

There’s no possible defense for such an outrageous racist attack on a young Muslim American congresswoman.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7261101/This-sickening-moment-presidency-Mr-Trump.html

He underestimates the power of motivated thinking when he says "there's no possible defense." Just over the last couple of days, I've read hundreds of possible defenses from people who should've known better.

Furthermore, one of my biggest personal disappointments since the 2016 elections has been the unfading desire of people who think about themselves as "Soviet/Russian intelligentsia" to support ugliest forms of dishonesty, xenophobia, racism, and amorality, as long as the ugliness serves their perceived interests.

Comments

[malobukov]

> desire of people who think about themselves as "Soviet/Russian intelligentsia" to support ugliest forms of dishonesty, xenophobia, racism, and amorality, as long as the ugliness serves their perceived interests.

Ex-Soviet people have first-hand experience with socialism, so it stands to reason that they oppose socialist ideas strongly advocated by the four. As the saying goes, "if you are not a socialist at 20 you have no heart, if you are still a socialist at 40 you have no brain".

If you still think this is racist, ask yourself what Trump and most of his supporters would chant about Candace Owens, Kanye West, or justice Clarence Thomas.

[lm644]

Have “the four” called for expropriation of private companies? because raising taxes to support even very extensive social programs is not that. I am afraid many ex-Soviet people, especially older generation, actually benefit from publicly funded social programs but advocate against them all the same...

[malobukov]

That’s an interesting subject worthy of discussion. But a discussion about Laffer curve or costs and benefits of social programs that begins by calling the opponent racist is not going to be very productive.

[lm644]

I guess it’s not going to be very productive but for a different reason: an attempt to bring up “socialism” as an excuse for ugliness is not really working.

[malobukov]

So you put socialism and racism on the same plank? Calling somebody socialist is as insulting as calling someone racist?

[lm644]

No, why? You tried to explain that many ex-Soviets support ugliness because they are afraid of Soviet-style socialism promoted by “the four.” This argument simply does not work: “the four” never supported anything remotely resembling the system I and - I am guessing - you grew up under.

[malobukov]

It is irrelevant what kind of socialism they supported. That discussion cannot even begin if it starts with "you're racist". A discussion assumes mutual respect. Calling an opponent racist automatically means that there's no respect, so there's nothing to talk about.

I'm surprised you don't see the difference. It is actually weaponised speech, straight from Soviet military propaganda textbook. That's how in war you justify killing the enemy - you drill into the soldiers that the enemy is not human. Untermensch, kafir, literally Nazi.

I though people who have lived through Soviet times are inoculated to propaganda and immune to it, but apparently not.

[lm644]

Not sure what is going on here. Somebody called you a racist?

[malobukov]

Not me, Trump. And his supporters. Direct quote:

> But since running for the White House, his [Trump] inflammatory language has flirted ever closer to crossing the line into overt racism, and now he’s crossed that line. Big time.

and then

> what happened in North Carolina last night was not just racist-fueled demagoguery but bordered on fascism

See?

I'm not a Trump supporter, but at least 40% of the country is, and calling them all racist demagogues seems to be in vogue.

That's exactly what Russian propaganda, overt and covert, is doing. Supporting both both extreme left and extreme right, Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter, polarizing the society.

[lm644]

Let me understand this clearly: Trump and his supporters, at least those participating in the NC rally, call for running a black congresswoman out of the country but it is better not to call this behavior by its proper name to avoid polarizing the society? Huh...

In my view, what Russian propaganda is doing it is taking pretty benign movements, like Black Lives Matters, and labelling them “extreme left”... calling at the same time for tolerance towards all kinds of white supremasists, all in the name of the sacred unity.

It seems avoiding the reality is no longer productive - or even possible, you know. Mutual respect would be great, of course, but it has to be mutual. Did you find any signs of respect towards the other side in that crowd chanting “Send her back”? If not, what in the world would you have me do? Pretend that it’s ok and doesn’t mean anything?

[malobukov]

And what is the proper name for calling four congresswomen, one of which is black, out of the country?

Before you answer, recall the British ambassador that Trump recently told to go home. Was he a woman, black, or a Muslim? And that wasn't a suggestion, "you can go, or you can stay".

[lm644]

Oh well... I see how it’s going. You will keep dragging straw men in, and that gets stale pretty quickly.

[timelets]

I admire your effort to clarify the issue but this conversation is going to lead nowhere because this person doesn't understand even the basic rules of logic, e.g. he writes that in his view statements "Trump is a racist" and "All Trump supporters are racists" are equivalent.

At this level of discussion, anything goes.

[lm644]

Unfortunately, have to agree. It does not look like a good faith argument anymore.

[timelets]

It's up to you whether you want to continue. To me, basic logical errors and far-fetched analogies are early indicators of futility.

[lm644]

Not after the last comment, no - that was a bit too much. British Ambassador?!!!

[timelets]

Exactly. As if, we should give Trump the benefit of the doubt because he's "just" a narcissistic asshole.

[juan_gandhi]

I'm afraid the mistake is about intellgentsia being some kind of special people. These self-appointed moral authorities and intellectuals... I think the only reasonable approach is to take people individually. But anyway, many of us bear a lot of misconceptions, especially about ourselves.

[timelets]

I do take them individually because many of them were my, e.g. teachers, and I learned a lot of good things from them. These are "my people" and, I guess, I have to accept their (and mine) limitations. But it's hard. And disappointing.